Episode 9: Strategic Budgeting and Forecasting, and Managing Up In Order to Advocate for Change with Paul Crocker
Episode 9: Strategic Budgeting and Forecasting + Managing Up In Order to Advocate for Change with Paul Crocker
We have a packed discussion with Paul Crocker, Supervisor of Maintenance at Kansas City Board of Public Utilities, this week on Masterminds in Maintenance! We discuss the importance of strategic budgeting and forecasting AND how to successfully manage up to your leadership teams in order to advocate for change.
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Ryan Chan, Masterminds in Maintenance
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George Williams, ReliabilityX
Joe Anderson, ReliabilityX
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00:00 Ryan Chan: Welcome to Masterminds in Maintenance, a podcast for those with new ideas in maintenance. I’m your host, Ryan. I’m the CEO and founder of Upkeep. Each week I’ll be meeting with a guest who’s had an idea for how to shake things up in the maintenance and reliability industry. Sometimes the idea of failed, sometimes it made their business more successful, and other times their idea revolutionized an entire industry. Today, I have with me Paul Crocker, Supervisor of Maintenance at the Kansas City Board of Public Utilities, Nearman Drinking Water Treatment Facility. I’ve had the great fortune of hearing Paul share a story at a recent conference, and I’m super excited to have him on the show today. Welcome, Paul.
00:37 Paul Crocker: Ryan, how’s it going?
00:39 RC: It’s going great, it’s a beautiful day.
00:41 PC: And I feel like, long time no see.
00:43 RC: I know, it’s just a week and a half ago.
00:46 PC: A week and a half ago, yep.
00:48 RC: Alright, well, Paul. I know a little bit about your background, could you start us off by sharing a little bit more about yourself, your background?
00:56 PC: Yeah, so my employment history is I’ve been with the utility that I’m with now for 25 years, but in that time I started out in micro-graphics and I went to the power plant. They had a job open internally to operate heavy equipment, so I got to learn how to operate a bulldozer and a skid steer and, actually, a switch engine and pulled rail cars around. I did that for a few years, and decided I need to go back to school and then I went back to school, got a degree in Network and Telecommunication Management, and then started making changes to get me in a position that I’m in today in the drinking water plant.
01:36 RC: Alright, very cool. So, how did you get started? It sounds like you came out of school, you got your first job, 23 years ago, in this space. What led you to getting that job? How did you get into the maintenance reliability space?
01:53 PC: Well, I started out at the plant, actually as an operator. I had been out of the country doing some drinking water treatment projects, and I brought some of the technology back. It was called the bio sand filter and it’s used in third world, second world sort of countries to help filter the water out of protozoa and bacteria, stuff that makes people sick. So, I was like, “Well, okay, I worked for utility. We’ve got a drinking water treatment plant, what’s similar, what’s different from the technology the plant uses versus this little filter that I’d learned how to make?” So I started talking to the chemist and it turns out it’s basically the same technology, except the drinking water treatment plant has standards that the EPA sets and we have to chlorinate the water and do a lot of other things that these little bio sand filters don’t have to do to meet people’s needs, but it’s pretty cool. Anyway, I got started, that got me in the plant, I wanted to be an operator, and then because I had a college degree they had CMMS at the plant. When the plant was built, they bought it with the control system and they had never really got it set up except for the asset location hierarchy. So really my first job was to sit in there and build store room in it and kind of just, the more I used it, the more I liked it and it just kinda grew from there. It’s been a long journey with it, so to speak, but it’s been a good one.
03:25 RC: Awesome. So now you’re in charge of maintenance for drinking water. It sounds like everything from mechanical to electrical fields, chlorine, ammonia. It sounds like these are all super important, very serious responsibilities. The entire population of Kansas City. What we often say is the work that is done within maintenance reliability often goes unnoticed. It seems like the repercussions to any sort of downtime or misstep, in terms of what you’re doing, could be extremely serious. So I guess the question here, Paul, is what’s your teams secret to consistency and excellence?
04:06 PC: Really I guess one thing about the plant is we kinda have to do the same things year after year. There’s not really any new things that happen. So, with the CMMS that we’ve got we’re able to put PMs and job plans and things like that, and those keep us kind of on time and on schedule. Some of them are calendar-based. A lot of them now are sort of meter based on runtime hours, but we do a lot of that stuff to just assess the condition of the equipment. There is an oil analysis, vibration analysis. That gives us a heads-up on equipment failures, but we’ve got enough redundancy that if we have to take something off, then we can do that. ’cause as a plant, and as a producing facility, we really don’t ever have the option to go off-line. It’s not like a power plant… If a power plant goes offline, nobody really knows is ’cause they’re on a grid, and the other power plants just sort of take care of the load, but in drinking water, that’s not that way. You really don’t wanna have to explain to your customers why they don’t have water.
05:04 RC: It seems pretty important.
05:06 PC: You want to stay out of it. It’s a good thing if you’re not on the news. You can be in the news for good reasons, but you don’t wanna be in the news for bad reasons, so…
05:16 RC: Right, yeah, so it’s a 24-7 operation for you guys. No concept of down time, right.
05:23 PC: That’s right, we try to keep it to absolute minimal.
05:25 RC: Well, cool. The main topic, I’d love to chat about today, Paul, is really about maintenance and reliability budgeting. How do you budget every single year? Where to spend? What to spend on for the next 12 months? Any tips, tricks, advice for best practices around budgeting and forecasting in a maintenance and reliability department?
05:47 PC: For us, it’s almost it’s probably a bit easier than it would be most places ’cause we kinda do the same things year after year, so we’ve got the previous year’s budget that’s usually pretty close to the year we’re applying for, unless we’re wanting some more money. So usually, one place I increase the budget has been around tools and training. Those have kind of been my bigger spends the last couple of years. I’ve been bumping those numbers up. Anything kind of having to do with sort of condition assessment technologies like ultrasound, infrared, vibration analysis, oil analysis. So I’ve bumped up those budget lines over the years so we can do more of it and have a better sense of what’s going on in the plant. So we have a heads up if something’s gonna break instead of waiting for it to shake off a pedestal or something, if it’s a big motor. It was easy to learn. It’s was easy to learn good things they be big expensive spins when those things fail.
06:50 RC: What we often hear though is… Especially when it comes to training and condition monitoring, we always have to… It’s commonly difficult to get these line items in from upper management. So I guess any tips and best practices there when trying to go up to upper management and say, “Hey we wanna spend an extra couple of thousand dollars on better training for the team.” Or a couple of thousand dollars on better remote conditioning and remote monitoring.
07:20 PC: It’s kind of a hard sell because the mindset is a lot of times is we’ve always done it the way we’re doing it now. And so when you come in with something new, like “Hey I wanna do oil analysis,” they’re like, “Well we’ve been changing the oil in these motors once a year. Isn’t that good enough?” And I’m like, “Well what if you didn’t run that motor a year?” You had $700, $800 worth of lubricant in it and you didn’t even run it. Why don’t you take a $35 oil sample, sent it off to a lab get the condition of the oil and the motor its sitting in and if it doesn’t need to be changed don’t change it. If it’s got a lot of particles in it, filter it. If its got water in it maybe run it through a filter that takes water out. But you have to do a lot of education, you have to do it quite a bit. Sometimes I’ll forward articles that I see other people write or publish on LinkedIn or videos, to my boss to kinda help me sell. And sometimes it takes a few years to get it done. You just can’t give up.
08:17 PC: If you make one attempt and like, “Oh he turned it down,” and then you give up, well, nothing’s ever gonna change. So I find it for me, I’ll just kinda call it my pushing my boulder up hill. All the time I’m always trying to push boulders up hill. Sometimes I get people up top see it and then they recognize it and they say, “That was a good thing that we did a while back. Let’s go ahead and try this.” And then we try it and it’s successful and we improve what we’re doing. And so it’s kind of my method is just keep trying to get stuff in front of my bosses and help… Bring in training when I can from different organizations and try to educate every time I can. There’s always opportunities. So I take advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.
09:02 RC: Yeah, so I think I heard three things there, Paul. The first one was take initiative and be the person to just raise their hand and say, “Alright, let’s do this.” The second one that I heard is really approaching it from an ROI mindset. So it’s not just, “Hey we wanna invest in these tools and these trainings, but hey, there could be and there is a positive return on this investment that we made. And then the third one I heard is persistent so don’t give up.
09:32 PC: That’s probably the biggest one, is persistence.
09:34 RC: That’s the biggest one. Alright, there we go. Something that I have loved chatting with you about Paul is just the level of initiative that you take and going to these conferences, constantly learning, where did that come from? And any advice for new folks coming into this space about where they could go where they should go, to continue learning?
10:01 PC: Yeah, I love sort of the maintenance and reliability community. I got my start in it with SMRP… I don’t know, probably five, six years ago. We started a kind of an informal chapter in Kansas City. It was off of SMRP’s radar. We run it… I don’t know, for a year or two with no real structure at least until the guy that was running it had to move on to do other things. And then there was nothing for year or two and then we started it back up. But in that time I was like, “Well, I like these little meetings that we have.” But we’re like, “What are all conferences are out there?” I know my industry is American Water Works Association Conferences and there’s always the in state versions like we’ve got the Kansas section of American Water Works Association, there’s a big national conference. But what’s bigger out there in maintenance and reliability. And then one of the guys at the conference said, “Well, SMRP’s gotta a big conference and then there’s the International Maintenance Conference and there’s the Reliability Conference. And he goes, “Well, SMRP’s already happened this year.” So I was like, “What’s the next one?”
11:05 PC: He says, “Well, I think it was the Reliability Conference. So I signed up for it and I’ve kinda been going to them ever since. And I just… I like the community ’cause you can go in there with a problem, and you find out that other people in completely different industries have had the same problem. And you get the chance to see how they’re doing it and how they’ve improved their organization. And then that you can take back bits and pieces to help improve what you’re doing. And everybody’s pretty accepting. And I haven’t come across anybody that looks down on me because I don’t know the best practice yet or I haven’t come up against a problem. I’m like… I haven’t seen that attitude. So it’s a great community to be in.
11:47 RC: Yeah.
11:48 PC: And it really goes across the board. It really doesn’t matter what you’re making or what you’re producing as a service. And the conferences I think could be attended by anybody. Even a nurse would find something helpful out of going to some of these conferences because they talk about lots of different things. Asset Management in of itself encompasses about everything there is. And you can always find something about safety, or reliability or asset management or maintenance topics. And it’s applicable to a lot of different things. So I just find it a pretty cool sort of community to be a part of.
12:25 RC: Yeah, absolutely. One thing that I think people don’t often see is the impact that maintenance reliability… Even reliability has on our everyday lives. One of the folks we had on our podcast just a few weeks ago was talking about the reason why people come to him is because of a big product recall because of product fail, it wasn’t reliable out in the actual… In the actual field, so I thought that was a great way to just showcase reliability in everyday products that we use.
13:01 PC: Yep.
13:01 RC: So, Paul, I would love to bring it back to this idea around budgeting, we talked about budgeting for training, how do you budget for and plan for the unexpected because that’s often the realm that we deal with in the maintenance reliability space.
13:20 PC: Yeah, I don’t like stuff to sneak up on me, I think that’s why I like doing some of the sort of condition assessment stuff like oil analysis and vibration ’cause it gives you a heads-up on things. And if you can see it coming, you can sort of plan for it, and ask for money for it in advance instead of, “Oh, hey, that pump just broke, and we didn’t know, we didn’t have any heads up it was gonna break.” And then once you get a quote back on how much it’s gonna cost to fix it, is like, I don’t have enough line items in my budget this year to cover it. I don’t want those sort of problems to happen so I try to budget enough that we can do enough preventive sort of maintenance and sort of condition assessment on different things to see where things are at as I really don’t like surprises especially a big expensive equipment, failing. And we have enough redundancy. We can get around it, but still, when something breaks, you have to address it and… So I don’t put a lot of fluff in my budget. We use… I usually… I’m under budget every year for what I would have put in, but… About the same year to year it really doesn’t change a whole lot.
14:31 RC: Yeah, so I think what I’m hearing is that’s a real reason to move towards condition monitoring is so that you can be more predictive, and prescriptive with your budget for next year. So that you could predict…
14:43 PC: Yeah, yeah.
14:43 RC: Failures, predict the amount of replacements that you’d need before it actually… Fires come up within your facility.
14:52 PC: Right, and if you’re operating the equipment with the way it was designed and you’re maintaining it the way it was intended to be maintained if it’s designed right and operated right, you should be able to expect a decent life out of most equipment. It doesn’t always work out that way, but in general, the better you treat the equipment, the better it’ll run for you. And so I have to say, over the years, I ever like come to appreciate engineers, especially in the utilities industry because a lot of times you really don’t think about them. I’ll pour a glass of water and drink it. But I really don’t think of the engineering that went into the plant, or the collector well system that we have, with the treatment processes, our techno… In fact, most people don’t think of all that stuff. ‘Cause like, they’ll just turn the tap, get some water, do whatever with it, and you really don’t think of all that and maybe you shouldn’t have to, but I don’t know, I’m always thankful of at least the industry I work in, so.
15:53 RC: Absolutely, that’s the work that you guys do at the water treatment facility. I’m curious Paul as well, we talked about budgeting and forecasting, a big question that our customers often face is how do you… And what’s the best way to make a repair versus replace decision on your equipment and assets?
16:18 PC: It kind of depends and some stuff I have got run to failure as my maintenance strategy on, like a small pump for instance. And I guess one of the cases we had is we had some small pumps in our plant, they would cost around $2000 to rebuild year after year. And I was like, “Well, I wonder if there’s a smaller pump around here that I can just install and when it fails, replace it and replace it cheaper.” So I looked at the operating context. It was a turbine regenerative pump about a half horsepower and it was pumping water, about five feet up from where it was at to an analyzer and this thing could pump up to 250 feet ahead. So it can pump water up long distances. They’re generally used for boiler feed pumps. So it was a bit overkill for how it was being used, so I found a smaller pump, replaced it, that was like $250 and actually, that pump has kind of outlived the previous $2000 pump. So sometimes you can find something that does a better job for a lot cheaper and even more reliable than what I had so some of those, you just kinda have to collect good data on if you’re getting a lot of failures and something and you can run different sort of analysis like [17:36] ____ analysis and kinda see how reliable a piece of equipment is and you’ve got a bunch of them.
17:42 PC: So for us, we got like 15 different chemical metering pumps and several for several different chemicals. They’re all the same, make and model essentially. So if you’re having failures on one, you can kind of start to say, “Well, what have we been doing to this and how has it been failing?” You look at the failure modes and you fix that and then you go back and try and find the root causes, when it does fail, and then see what you can learn from it and it if it’s a good fit to rebuild it, then you rebuild it if it’s time to replace it you kinda look at the historical cost and it’s like, maybe you can buy a newer pump that’s a little better design and install it versus the one you’ve been trying to maintain for years and a lot of the CMMS’s keep pretty good history on assets on what you spend on ’em and if you’ve been capturing failure codes and you got criticality sort of analysis done so you’re working on equipment that’s critical to your processes, you should have a pretty good idea of what your failure’s are gonna be and work… And preventive sort of maintenance is working to try and prevent those failures from occurring in the first place.
18:49 RC: Yeah, absolutely, so I think what I heard Paul is really about having really good data that you could look at and analyze to help make these repair versus replace decisions.
19:01 PC: Right.
19:02 RC: I think the other really interesting insight from that too, is it’s not just about the cost to repair, the cost to replace, but it could also be like the cost of purchasing a replacement that could be cheaper and also more effective and reliable. That was a really interesting example.
19:24 PC: Yeah, and even at this little pump case, I was talking about. So the pump that we rebuild I probably had to carry 20 different parts on the shelf ’cause I had 10 or 15 of those pumps that ran different analyzers in the plant, so I’d have to carry enough on the shelf to keep those pumps working. So we’d take one off we sort of rebuilt to put it on the self. So if one fails, we could install it. And so when I found this other pump like I don’t have to keep any parts I just, I keep another pump on the shelf. And then I don’t have guys I’m not wasting their time, in the shop. Turned down a pump when I’ve got one. They’ll do the same amount of job for a fraction of the cost. $200 or actually $200 versus $2000, so there’s a huge cost save. As it does the exact same same function. Just as good and longer. And I don’t have to repair it and just get rid of it, put another one in and we stay running. So we’re not doing maintenance on stuff like that, so it helps. It helps to work on stuff that’s really more important to work on.
20:22 RC: Absolutely.
20:23 PC: Avoiding those little time sync failures. Some guys may like enjoy… When you’re building little pumps like that I don’t know, I’d find it a little bit monotonous.
20:35 RC: Yeah. Yeah. Super cool. I think it’s really important to always take a step back and be like, “Hey are we just making this more difficult on ourselves? In trying to rebuild the pump that we’ve had for the past 10 years versus just buying a brand new one?”
20:48 PC: Buying a brand new one. Yep.
20:49 RC: That could be cheaper, more effective, more efficient, more reliable.
20:53 PC: Yap.
20:54 RC: Very interesting.
20:54 PC: Yeah. Well, I think this was like a 112 horsepower, something motor, I went to versus a half horse that’s doing the same model, it’s doing, the same water, the same analyzer just the same amount it was feeding before with the other bigger pump, and not near as much water running down the drain, bypass analyzer, too. So it helped that too ’cause we’re not sort of cannibalizing our own product, just ’cause we got an oversized pump giving us more water than what we need. That’s kinda some good things there.
21:26 RC: What about for budgeting and maintaining spare parts and inventory, any tips around budgeting, forecasting, how to maintain minimum quantities, there and how much to gauge in terms of spend?
21:40 PC: At least the CMMS I leverage some of the reports, it has in it. So it will track what I’ve used for all the different parts for the year and I can run a report, economic or quantity EOQ report. And it’ll tell me like, “Hey, we’ve had this much on the shelf. Well you may be only need one of these, ’cause you haven’t really used any of the 12 you had for the last 10 years.” So run it down to one, where it’s safety spare if you need it, and then just order them as you need them. So we try to keep a minimum amount of inventory, but there are some things we have their long lead time and some things we have to do every year as part of the risk management plan for our chlorine and ammonia sort of systems. So those parts I like to keep on the shelf and enough on hand to rebuild all the equipment that we need rebuild that here. So at least when we’re not trying to produce widgets to meet customer demand it’s we’re making one product continuously and the demand really has kind of gone down due to consumer use products.
22:47 PC: They make toilets that use less water and shower heads that use less water. So consumer demand’s actually kind of fallen off a little bit, so it kind of makes some things easier. We don’t have to constantly keep enlarging the plant because some of those efficiencies that in the consumer space, I guess.
23:05 RC: Yeah, absolutely. So I think what I heard there is utilizing a CMMS to really help you track and manage reports on particular pieces of inventory and really help you be smart about your minimum quantities, and whether you’ve set the right minimum quantity or not. Instead of just operating off of, “This is what we did last year, this is what we have in stock.”
23:32 PC: Yeah. We wanna have enough but not have so much that you don’t wanna have a ton of O-rings and elastomer stuff, ’cause it just doesn’t last on the shelf for forever. You just need enough to get you by in the short term. And sometimes I guess if you’re a new company, you may not know exactly what you need. But as time goes on, you’ll start to get a better picture of what you need. If you’re using the CMMS, the tools we have to look at data nowadays, and take that data and form some knowledge and have some intelligence about what you order then I think you’re probably doing good and there’s lots of spreadsheets and stuff out there you can get to help you make those decisions if you don’t have a CMMS. ‘Cause not everybody has one but if you do, and you collect a good information, it should help you figure out what you need to order and it should also track how much you spent. Like I bought that from Joe’s plumbing, down the street it was $12, and I bought it from Larry’s plumbing it was $25. Well, you can start to sort see who you bought it from over the years and sort of pick the better supplier gives you a good product at a good price.
24:42 RC: Yeah, absolutely. Again, the power of good data, it comes not just from the reports it produces today, but the historical context that it gives you, over the last several years. Really, really awesome. So Paul I remember you’re talking to Seattle that you’ve spoken up to management, many times in your career, advocating for change. Can you share some of those experiences, what that was like? What have you found that works best when trying to openly communicate to management eyes about maintenance and reliability in your organization?
25:14 PC: Well, it could be a little scary at first, I’m a little bit of an introvert. So I don’t know go naturally, “Hey, let’s go up and have a conversation with the people.” But…
25:23 RC: We’re done right now Paul. You’re doing great.
25:24 PC: Yeah I know. [laughter] So, really, a lot of that started around when my manager had asked several of us in the water division to go to this kind of asset management workshop that was being put on by the state. Because at some point the state’s gonna say or the states gonna say, “Hey, if you want state dollars to help you maintain your infrastructure, you gotta prove you’re doing asset management.” So I did that, I started to learn a lot about asset management, and it was a sort of a bigger picture thing than just maintenance. And so I kind of used that to help me kind of form a story of what we’re doing and then approach management about it. So, one of the ways is I’d just show up to board meetings and get to know the board members. And then one of the particular board members, Mary Gonzalez was always really good about coming out to our plant. And in the American Water Works Association, there’s this thing in the states called Top Ops, and you compete by answering multiple choice questions on a panel. They’ll ask you a question about drinking water treatment, or waste water treatment, or whatever. And the group that answers the question and is the most accurate and fastest win. And if you win the state, then you can go to the national conference, and compete against like all 50 states.
26:48 PC: So she would come out and we’d quiz, as operators, these questions. And so it developed a relationship with at least one of the board members. And I kind of used that to start exposing them to asset management things, and how if you put in asset management right and you integrate it into the culture and into the mission, vision, values, of the company, then it really can improve everything. And so, I always look at asset management as a way to help me do my job as a maintainer and help my maintainers do a better job through cultural improvements and things like that. They can come out of… Out gross of really engaging leadership, ’cause they don’t have hands on the floor, they’re not touching the equipment, they’re not operating the equipment. All they get to see really is the reports, and then sometimes that’s the best view they’ve got of the company. Well, but when somebody like me comes and says, “Hey, have you been to my plant? Hey, let me show you how this piece of equipment works,” and, “Oh, hey, here’s some asset management stuff,” or I’ll send them a video I’ve seen. It’s been really kind of cool that way, but I was able to take two of the board members to a kind of a one-day CRL workshop in Omaha a year or so ago I think it was.
27:58 PC: And they just loved it and it was kind of cool ’cause they’re like, “I never dreamed at all I’d ever be able to do something like that.” So, it was really kind of cool to just get some people that are like super high above me in the organization, I mean, they’re elected by the community, and be able to take ’em to a conference that talks about asset management, and maintenance, and liability, and it was really just kind of cool sort of stuff. So, it helps me. I mean, it helps when you when you go to do stuff and you kind of have those people as allies for the cause to improve things.
28:31 RC: That’s awesome. I mean, it sounds like you did a great a great job from educating yourself, the team below you, and also managing up, and educating the team that are responsible for some of the biggest decisions within the company. So, and it sounds like you did a great, great job about that.
28:52 PC: Yeah, we got an awesome elected board and the leaders, they all really care about the utility, and the employees, and the management staff alike. So when you can kind of do something you think will improve the culture and it’s always, to me, it’s just something you gotta go for, [chuckle] ’cause it just is and that’s what I do, so…
29:14 RC: That’s really cool, Paul. Paul, I’m curious, what’s something you wish more people knew about the maintenance and reliability industry in space?
29:24 PC: That we’re really trying to improve things and make it better for everybody. I don’t know if it’s really our technical defined role as a maintainer, but I find really maintainers like to fix things and like to make things work right. And it really goes beyond just a piece of equipment, or a breaker, or a motor, or whatever. You can kind of apply it to your job, or your division, or your company. If you can make it run better, that’s kind of what I think most maintainers have at heart. I just I wanna see the company do better, and I think we already do a great, but what if somehow what we did in asset management, or reliability, or safety allowed us to lower the cost of electricity or drinking water to the customers? I think that would be a huge win. So that’s kind of my overall goal for some of the stuff that I try to take to upper management is to one day be able to say, “You know, hey, some of the stuff we put into work actually lowered our costs and how many utilities could say we’ve lowered the cost of water, we lowered the cost of power or waste water services?” I think that’s a… It might be a lofty goal and completely unattainable, but I think it’s worth trying to get there.
30:37 RC: I think that’s a common misconception that many people have about maintenance too is that it’s… Maintenance is not just about maintaining what we currently have in the current state that it’s in right now. A lot of maintenance and reliability is about making it better, about making it cheaper, better, faster. I started my career out in process engineering and it was all about making our process better and faster. And there’s a big component within maintenance within that.
31:08 PC: Yeah.
31:08 RC: So, absolutely, Paul. I loved hearing your story. So, Paul, where can our listeners go to find out all the ways that they can connect with you and follow along your journey?
31:20 PC: Probably LinkedIn is probably the best. I think I’m on there quite a bit. I know I look at it usually in the morning, [chuckle] at the end of the work day, a couple of times in the evening. Probably far too much, but I do like LinkedIn. It’s a great platform.
31:34 RC: Awesome. Awesome, awesome. Well, thanks again, Paul, for joining us and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to today’s Masterminds in Maintenance. My name is Ryan Chan, I’m the CEO of Upkeep. You can connect with me on LinkedIn and directly at [email protected] Until next time. Thanks so much, Paul.